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The reviewers would be less busy if they didn’t take on work they shouldn’t be doing. No action was needed on this ban until the MoD identified the areas they owned and asked for caches within those areas to be banned. Until that time no action was needed. But as we all know our reviewers look for any excuse to refuse caches and what could be bigger than banning all caches that might in any way be associated with the MoD.
Clownpunchers,
I really think you need to be making these points to both Graculus directly and to Groundspeak. You may use my photographs and my coordinates (which I did supply to Lindinis). These comments on Facebook, GAGB and Groundspeak forums will probably attract much support.
The amazing thing is that the MoD have now documented that they have no control over Merrivale or Okehampton, but still Graculus won’t budge. It has to be taken over his head. All the reviewers seem to be “jobsworths” who can see nothing objectively.
I have to conclude that it is probably time for some official complaints to Groundspeak. I cannot believe they understand the damage that is being done to their business by both GAGB and the UK Reviewers.
It would appear that Lindinis just defers to Graculus who appears to be the one who makes all the decisions. His reason is that he wants to get the complete picture (i.e. all the maps for all the areas) before he does anything. He seems to want to take no action re Dartmoor even though the MoD specifically mentioned it in their letter.
In my opinion NO action should have been taken until such time as the MoD identified their land. But the reviewers seem very keen to stop geocaching activity for any excuse at all. They seem to think they represent the landowners and not the cachers or Groundspeak and I have to agree with the last sentence of clownpunchers post above.
I’ve now had at least half a dozen emails back and forth with both Lindinis and Graculus but they are adamant they won’t lift the Dartmoor bans yet. They really have no argument at all. The letter from the MoD is very clear, the ranges are clearly marked on the maps, but none of this is good enough for our reviewers. Either we wait or put in official complaints to Groundspeak – individuals will have to decide.
I was very disappointed to read clownpuchers post above and immediately wrote to Lindinis to see what was going on. It appears that Graculus has ruled that the ban has NOT been lifted, and that he doesn’t know where the boundaries are between the ranges. He describes them as “arbitrary” which is ludicrous. It was these “arbitraty” boundaries that they used to ban new caches in the first place, but they appear unwilling to use them to lift the ban 🙁
As for Knattaborough Tor, this cache was never inside the range anyway (I walked there and took photographs to prove it) but it is now over 8km outside Willsworthy Range – so why can’t it be published now?
I have written to both Lindinis and Graculus to ask them to apply some common sense to all of this and we shall have to wait and see. It would obviously be helpful if others could add their opinions both on the various forums and directly to the reviewers.
Simon, Many thanks for that, it is probably as good a result as we could hope for. Looks as though we have lost Willsworthy but can keep the other two ranges which are the most important as they are the biggest by far. It will be interesting to see if our reviewers are going to pick this up and allow the caches immediately. It will also be interesting to see if the letterboxing community will remove their boxes – I very much doubt it, but I don’t think it is in our best interest to do other than accept this and allow the boxers to continue as they always have. After all we can always place a letterbox there 🙂
As far as I am aware, Munzees and geocaching are completely different games and are in competition with each other. I believe that geocaching.com won’t even allow the word Munzee on any of their cache listings. There even seemed to be a problem using the word on their forums.
As you correctly say Munzees use QR codes which are appearing on everything these days – almost everything you buy seems to have one on it. There should be no overlap as far as geocaching.com is concerned. Every geocache MUST have a cache (except earth caches, etc) and finding a QR code is NOT finding the cache and cannot be logged until you find the cache and sign the logbook.
The real confusion seems to be that many cache sites also have Munzees associated with them. You log the Munzee by scanning it but this is nothing to do with the cache. A good example of this is Log Ness Monster where there is a Munzee on the fence. Unfortunately Munzees often give away the cache hide.
I have tried to contact Andrew Watson for an update but I haven’t yet been able to speak to him. I will try again on Monday. So, unfortunately no change, so no new caches yet 🙁
I had to smile when I read this DNF by WulfyGeo on Beneath the Waterfall:
On my last day staying near Okehampton I decided to head out and try and get some of this series of caches.
I stood on the trail for quite a while deciding whether to try for this one or head further up the path for some slightly easier caches. Given that I had knee surgery just a few months ago and am allergic to insect stings and quite a few plants as well as being honestly a bit fat and unfit, I haven’t looked for many 4T caches. I eventually decided to go for it.
I don’t know if the path I took was the worst one or not but it was very boggy and I was quickly soaked to my ankles and pretty muddy everywhere else. After stopping for a rest twice I made it to the GZ and the spot in the spoiler picture at which point I was swarmed by insects – I am calling them midgies now but what I called them then isn’t repeatable.
After making the epic (for me) climb to the top I wasn’t going to give up and I spent a good 30 mins looking for the cache without any luck, however there were a few spots that I knew I couldn’t get to with my dodgy knee. I had to leave then as I noticed the huge number of welts and hives from the insect bites on my arms.
I did learn a few things though:
1. My boots need re-waterproofing 🙂
2. Even superstrong anti-histamines wear off after being bitten by a million insects
3. ‘A bit boggy’ means something different on Dartmoor than on the chalklands of East Kent
But on the plus side, I have also learned that I can make it to a 4T cache so I will be trying for others.By the time I got back to the trail I looked like I had a severe case of measles so had to head straight for a pharmacy so didn’t get a chance to look for the other caches either 🙁
Thanks for bringing me up here, despite everything I enjoyed the hunt.
Stuff from geocaching.com IS the biggest rip off 🙁 Anything with the official logo on is at least twice the price of stuff with the generic geocaching logo. However, trackables have to be logged through geocaching.com but you don’t have to buy from them. I buys lots of stuff from BaseOfTree.com and I have given them a free link from this web site. They are very competitive but don’t buy any official caches.
If anybody buys from BaseOfTree please mention this web site. Maybe I can charge them next year 🙂
As soon as you place it in a cache in the UK it will add 4,000 miles unless you ask the owner to delete them.
reb10, just another thought. You can physically place it in a cache on Sunday, but you can’t log it there without grabbing it first. If you just place it in a cache then the next finder will have to unravel what has occurred.
It hasn’t been placed in a cache but into an event. The cacher who placed it there said “Will help fix some mileage, Discovered this guy at the Potluck event.”
Basically another form of cheating adding nearly 4,000 miles to the cache’s journey. Just what is the point 🙁 If I was you I would email the TB’s owner and say that you have it in the UK and the logs at the event should be deleted. Of course, if you grab it back you add another 4,000 miles!
A trackable is normally “grabbed” because a cacher who finds a trackable in a cache is too impatient to allow it to be properly logged there, so instead of “retrieving” it from the cache he grabs it from the cacher. A very poor practice.
reb10, do you still have the trackable or have you placed it in another cache? If you have still got it you should grab it back and then place it in another cache. If you have already placed it but were a bit slow logging it then there is nothing else to be done.
It’s not surprising the Americans don’t allow caches about history – as they don’t have any 🙂 The old Virtual cache would have suited you exactly, but no longer allowed 🙁
Yes, there are few fans of multis. It’s all about the numbers I’m afraid, my new series has attracted more geocachers in 2 weeks than some of my caches have done in 2 years 🙁
Good luck, we shall watch with interest 🙂
You are not the only one to be confused over Challenge Caches, they have changed the rules so much that they are fairly useless now. However, the basic principle is that cachers have to find a set of existing caches that meet the Challenge Cache criteria in order to be allowed to find the Challenge Cache itself. From your description this is not what you are trying to do at all. In fact you are almost describing the recent Challenge concept which was quickly dropped last year.
There are other problems with your idea. You MUST specify at least one set of coordinates and a GPS MUST be needed at some stage in finding the cache. Additional logging requirements, like posting a photo before you get your smilie, are also no longer allowed. You haven’t mentioned a hidden cache at all, so what you describe is possibly closer to an Earthcache, which have another set of rules which I’ve never looked at.
I’m not much help really!
Seaglass Pirates again on DDD17:
Lucky number 17 and this was a nearly lost the plot place. I had to go for this one because it was my turn. I had to go for it because my conscience wouldnt allow seaglass pirate number 1 to go off the path to get another one. Arrived at the GZ which was 89 feet from the main path – nice to be punished at the end of a walk like this lol. And began to search the area. It was at the point of animal rage that I finally stood there with blood and death in my eyes that I saw it. Seriously. Seriously though. I could not believe it. I was caught between maniacal laughter and murderous rage. Oh it is on now. Polling lists, I need a house number fast. TFTC which took me longer to sign than find.
Another Seaglass Pirates log – this time Dart’moor’s Double Dozen 01. Do they do stand up 🙂
Well what can we say about this series. I am shaking my head as I remember yesterday. Two lessons learned. More water needed and suncream. Our faces are burnt into a grimace and our eyebrows look like someone has attempted a hot waxing and left half way through. I am sure they will return to their normal position given fluid and time but at present we look like we have had plastic surgery and someone put us near the bar fire to dry. But what a brilliant series. At some points on the second half of this “dirty” double dozen when we were fingertip searching for a micro 100 feet off the path I began to realise I wasnt longing for the series to end. But more longing for an internet signal so I could search the online poll records to find out where Dartmoor Dave lived. But we got there in the end. DNF’d three – 12, 22, 24. They are all there though as they were found by the unearthly abilities of Westward Ho and co. And we were following them around it seems. You could not tell. Not a cachers trail in sight. Sooooo grateful for that …. But anyway despite the delirium brought on by dehydration and horse fly bites we had a ball. I say horseflies. These had hooves and when you slapped them they slapped you back. But anyway we found this particular cache in about 30 seconds of arrival. The warning is that this is one of the hardest to find and it pretty much is. Coordinates were spot on with two garmin 450’s but still some of the hides were evil and obviously a couple eluded us. Thank you for this cache and for this series. Please dont do any more like this unless we apply for Bupa care to meet us at the end.
There are 27 caches in 6.5 miles or one every 420 yards on average, so approximately at quarter mile intervals. They are closer together than I would like, but these were placed specifically for those who were looking for some sort of Dartmoor Power Trail. It will be interesting to see how many bother with them, but it has already attracted considerable interest including cachers we rarely see on Dartmoor.
As regards 3 and 23, they are on opposite sides of the river and are spaced accordingly. They are not supposed to be done consecutively.
But the same question arises – How many locals would bother with a trail of OpenCaching caches, if they couldn’t log them on Groundspeak and add them to “their numbers”???
It doesn’t matter whether its oc.com or oc.org.uk – you can’t count them on Groundspeak.
Well, there’s always Lord Darcy 🙂
I think the real problem is GAGB and not the UK Reviewers. It’s so annoying that they seem to be able to overrule the agreements that are already in place (like the DNPA guidelines).
I wrote this earlier but nobody replied:
The other question is how many locals would bother with a trail of OpenCaching caches, if they couldn’t log them on Groundspeak and add them to “their numbers”???
I’ve now added my review, but it doesn’t seem to count for very much. I guess you need to have reviewed many to get more weight.
Everybody should log on and add their review in favour of this cache.
But I agree, review by ignorant peers is useless unless you can get all your mates to help!
Does anybody know what the relationship is between Groundspeak and GAGB? And between GAGB and the Groundspeak UK Reviewers? GAGB really do seem to be the main problem with everything. They claim to represent us but I can see no Added Value that they provide, in fact just the opposite. Maybe the campaign with Groundspeak should be to persuade them to ditch GAGB who seem to be totally self appointed and clearly do not represent the members who pay their dosh to Groundspeak.
Latest Update:
I missed a call from Andrew Watson on Wednesday last week and he’s not back in the office until Monday or Tuesday. The DNPA are in contact with the MoD and they are going to attempt to negotiate a local agreement with the MoD on Dartmoor. I think we should all be patient and see what progress is made. I don’t think any individual contact with the local MoD will be helpful. I will continue to speak to Andrew who I believe is taking this very seriously. If you look at the DNPA 20 year plan “access” is hugely important.
I will try to get involved with this, Andrew and I came up with the SSSI agreement last year. The biggest problem may be the reviewers but if we can get the written permission we need they will have to accept it. If not we can ALL appeal to Groundspeak, but we need the written permission first.
All the caches for my new trail have been approved, placed and will be published tonight. I think I have walked most of the route about 6 times!
The caches are fairly varied both in nature and difficulty and several are NOT typical DD caches. I am expecting a few comments 😉
No real help with hints, certainly no spoilers, but most caches have an obvious feature, so concentrate your search there. NO trees need to be climbed, NO walls need to be disturbed and for most of the more difficult ones – just use your eyes!
If you are free tomorrow then you probably need to allow 5 or 6 hours.
Good luck and enjoy 🙂
PS There is an unactivated FTF Geocoin for the FTF on the last cache.
I would imagine that the areas to avoid for bird nesting would be far bigger for army manoeuvres than for letterboxing or geocaching. The remote geocaches get barely 20 visits a year whereas just one army training day would cause more impact than 10 years geocaching.
I would think the biggest threat to bird nesting (and other creatures) is fire. That huge fire on the north moor a few weeks ago must have caused immense damage to all wild life and coming during the nesting season would have destroyed a very large number of ground nesting birds nests.
I have some update information which I will add soon, very busy at the moment!
Also I intend taking up the Roos Tor ban, Brentorboxer has provided some helpful information here.
I would like to see the maps so please email to me davidgmartin@me.com
Thanks
DaveHere’s an interesting thought:
If the MoD ban becomes permanent AND we can continue to place caches on OpenCaching.com then we could add a link from one site to the other. Caches could still then be found & logged on Groundspeak even though they were archived! Obviously we couldn’t get any new ones on Groundspeak. However, it would be difficult to publicise this to anybody coming to Dartmoor who wasn’t aware of the ban.
The other question is how many locals would bother with a trail of OpenCaching caches, if they couldn’t log them on Groundspeak and add them to “their numbers”???
I thought I would return to this topic for a couple of reasons. First we completed Brentorboxer’s Following the Dartmoor Trail series today. I have to say that we enjoyed this series more than I thought we would. I had obviously read the comments posted in this topic and it was difficult to start with an open mind. However, we are glad that we completed the series and really did enjoy the walk and the caches, although I can understand the comments about the gorse and the similarity of the caches and hides. But there is still a fairly large amount of effort required to place a series such as this, and most of the logs were very complimentary.
The second reason is that I promised my own series on Dartmoor. I wrote previously “I really am planning a trail for you, it will be called Dart’moor’s Dozen and will have only 12 caches over a 6 mile walk. Hopefully the caches will all be interesting and different to each other and will definitely not be trivial finds. Hopefully it will get you out on to the real moor, which I don’t think you get on to very often, but will not be remote. But I’m not going to rush these out tomorrow, they need thinking about and planning.”
Well, I’ve done my thinking and planning which has resulted in a couple of changes, but basically the same route I had in mind before. I’ve walked the route about 4 times, the locations have all been approved and now I must get out there and place the caches. Watch this space.
Well my first OpenCaching.com cache and a FTF 🙂
I heard about this new cache when I phoned DNPA on Friday and I thought I would wander down to Postbridge to find it.
However, a very disappointing hide, given that this is the DNPA. It’s not really in a dry stone wall, but under a beautiful Beech hedge/wall, the typical Dartmoor type. Decades of moss everywhere, both on the trees and the wall. I know BB wouldn’t approve and I would agree.
I have left a log asking for everybody to be careful and will send Andrew a tactful message tomorrow as we need him on side for the MoD problems, but I have to say a bit disappointing. If this was a geocaching. com cache the area would look a lot different by now 🙁
To log a find on OpenCaching.com is very interesting. You give your idea on Terrain, Difficulty, Awesomeness!!! and Size and what you say affect the ratings of the cache. So you end up with an average – what a great idea.
For the time being at least it is probably best to work together to make geocaching.com work better for everybody. I think all would agree that they have the best web site and functionality, and certainly the best critical mass by a very long way, although many would disagree with some of their policies and methods.
However, history proves that nothing is for ever – who would have dreamt that the IBM of the 60s and 70s would lose its way or Microsoft of the 80s and 90s a similar fate. And even Google is beginning to show a few cracks now!
Unfortunately these changes seem to be measured in decades and we are probably hoping for something quicker 🙂
I’ve just been talking to the DNPA again and have just found out something very interesting, if not a little disappointing. The DNPA are beginning to place their own caches and are listing them on the Garmin sponsored site. They won’t get them listed on Groundspeak as I am sure that they are too close together and too close to existing caches. Is anybody registered on the Garmin site and logged any finds there?
I’ve no further news on the MoD problem.
I’ve now created a new topic OpenCaching.com and moved all relevant replies there.
We took off to Cornwall today for a very disappointing day’s caching. I may not agree with everything that Chris Graculus says but he has this after his signature on his posts “When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot.” Unfortunately we found several that fitted that description today – no more than micros tossed in hedgerows 🙁 This seems to be the trend in geocaching which I find to be so disappointing – but then as we all know “It’s all about the numbers!”
Anyway, I digress – just before I left this morning Andrew Watson (Head of Recreation at DNPA) returned my call from Monday. He knows nothing of the ban and has asked his Head Ranger to take it up with the guys at Okehampton. I suspect this could be a lengthy process!
Thanks for your good wishes, but nothing positive to report yet.
However, there is a very heated discussion going on here: http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=312162&st=0&gopid=5264192&#entry5264192
Finderman, as ex-army, having trained on Dartmoor and now geocaching on Dartmoor, you might well like to add your point of view in that forum.
Monday morning update:
I have not yet been able to talk to Andrew Watson (Head of Recreation at the DNPA) with whom I negotiated the new geocaching guidelines last year, but have left a message for him.
I have spoken to my land agent at the Duchy who knows nothing of this ban and will talk to the land agent that deals with the MOD. However, he did suggest that it would be ludicrous to ban geocaching/letterboxing on one of the ranges and allow it on the others, from which I inferred that he would not be happy with a ban on any of the ranges.
There has been a very useful post on the Groundspeak forum from a reviewer who says “If local cachers and/or the GAGB are willing/able to negotiate local exemptions then we will be able to review accordingly.”
So, cautiously optimistic 🙂
Another update – from a DNPA Factsheet:
Public access to the Training Areas
The Dartmoor Commons Act 1985 allows the general public access on the common land by foot and on horseback.
Most of the Training Areas are on common land. The military welcomes public access to these Training Areas but for the public’s safety Range Danger Areas are closed to the public when live firing is programmed. The Range boundaries are marked on the ground by red and white posts with warning notices and are also shown on some maps such as the Ordnance Survey Outdoor Leisure map for Dartmoor.
Warning signals (red flags by day or red lights by night) are hoisted on prominent physical features around each Range Danger Area to indicate that live firing is occurring. A number of lookout posts are also manned when live firing is taking place.
Dartmoor Commons Act 1985
1O.—( 1) Subject to the provisions of this Act and compliance
to commons. with all rules, regulations or byelaws relating to the commons
and for the time being in force, the public shall have a right of
access to the commons on foot and on horseback for the
purpose of open-air recreation; and a person who enters on the
commons for that purpose without breaking or damaging any
wall, fence, hedge, gate or other thing, or who is on the
commons for that purpose having so entered, shall not be
treated as a trespasser on the commons or incur any other
liability by reason only of so entering or being on the commons.OK, so no specific mention of geocaching or letterboxing, but our rights are enshrined in an Act of Parliament. I think the GAGB are way out of their depth with this one and appear to have no jurisdiction in this. However, we still need to persuade them to change their mind as for some reason they seem to hold power over the UK Reviewers 🙁
Can I just ask that we don’t turn this forum into a vehicle for personal attacks.
As ex-Army, finderman’s views are very relevant and I think we all agree that we need to stand united with out letterboxing friends to protect our respective hobbies. He rightly points out that this goes much deeper than plastic boxes.
