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Simon, can you please do me a favour, go onto these Facebook sites and post a link to our site here please; and write something favourable, if you are so inclined 🙂 Many thanks, Dave
Whether you agree or disagree with the guidelines, I can’t see how you can describe them as nonsense. Surely the idea of these guidelines is to try to give a consistency across all caches. It doesn’t mean that you should be spending 30 minutes, it actually says less than 30 minutes, so less than a minute is fine if you are lucky, but possibly the cache should have been rated less than D2.5.
I don’t agree that most people wouldn’t spend 30 minutes – I know I’ve watched them, and you only spent 10 minutes on Leap Day 3 🙂 I would imagine that many have spent far more than 10 minutes on the Great Plantation Walk caches.
Dartymoor, there is no point in disagreeing with me over difficulty ratings. They are defined as follows:
* Easy. In plain sight or can be found in a few minutes of searching.
** Average. The average cache hunter would be able to find this in less than 30 minutes of hunt.
*** Challenging. An experienced cache hunter will find this challenging, and it could take up a good portion of an afternoon.
**** Difficult. A real challenge for the experienced cache hunter – may require special skills or knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days / trips to complete.
***** Extreme. A serious mental or physical challenge. Requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to find cache.You don’t need a D5 for 2.5 hours of searching, according to the guidelines you only need a D3. We are so used to overrated caches that sometimes it is worth looking at the guidelines.
I think muddypuddles’ Tavy Treasure Trail is a good example of a D5 cache. I can’t believe anybody achieved this in less than 10 hours, certainly not 2.5 hours. Judy and I took 10 trips! It might be argued that it isn’t really extreme and isn’t a serious mental or physical challenge, but I don’t think any of us who have completed it would accept that argument!
I have just been converted by Tamerton Chocolates to displaying OS maps on geocaching.com using Greasemonkey and have realised the impact this has on the Dartmoor Mega & Minor Challenge caches. You can immediately see which grid square every cache is in, so you can easily see which caches are available to you. Thanks again TC.
Thanks TC, I’ve just followed your very easy instructions and it works perfectly! So why are all those cachers in the US so unhappy? Also how does Google allow its maps to be used like this, but not allow geocaching.com to use them? This works so easily, but for my inquiring brain it asks more questions than it answers! And is this a legitimate solution, ie are we licensed to use these maps, or are we using them illicitly? But I’m not complaining, just interested. Thanks again for this.
I have to admit that I have no knowledge of the Greasemonkey script and what its capabilities are. Perhaps those of you who use it could please write a short description and how to instal. Is the use of OS maps, etc licensed or not? If it is so easily available why are the US users so upset about the loss of Google maps if they can instal this instead?
TC, although my original post was prompted partly because I had read your DNF logs, it made no mention of the cache or the cacher. Most of what I wrote was because I had watched the group attempt to find my Leap Day caches and I specifically mentioned those caches.
I certainly don’t take offence at DNFs logged on my caches, in fact I sent out 2 emails yesterday asking for DNF logs as I knew that the cachers had been searching but had found a nearby letterbox. Neither do I ridicule DNF logs, I was just trying to categorize them.
As I have said before, those of us who take the time and trouble to try to place decent caches for others’ enjoyment really would like to receive thoughtful logs, either Finds or DNFs. The simple TFTC is really annoying as discussed elsewhere, but my original post was about cachers criticising the owner because they have failed to find a cache, and suggesting that maybe they should consider that it is possibly their fault and not the CO. When the large group returned to my Leap Day cache they admitted that the coordinates had been spot on and they couldn’t explain the DNF.
It seems to me that the current trend, at least on Dartmoor, (to a lesser extent elsewhere) to give totally explicit hints and spoilers is making a mockery of the difficulty rating. If you are not prepared to spend 30 minutes looking for a cache, then you should avoid difficulty 2 caches.
LB also makes a very valid point when he says “There is of course a fourth DNF type. The ‘My caching ego wont allow me to log a DNF’ DNF” I have noticed many cachers write a note explaining why they haven’t found a cache, instead of logging a DNF. If you’ve looked then it is either a Find or a DNF, and writing a note isn’t really an option.
This is what you should write in a log: Leap Day Trail Bonus
This is just about the most enthusiastic and comprehensive log I have ever seen. It’s this sort of log that really motivates a cache owner to go and place another cache. Thank you so much James (metal-bijou). 🙂
How annoying is that – I was in Paignton only yesterday! But I wouldn’t have known about it without reb10’s post as it is outside my 12 mile watch range.
Phil, we had to DNF on the last cache of the day today, as we had run out of time and with guests arriving here we just had to leave. Whilst looking through the other logs I noticed one which said “At last, 4th attempt and found TFTC” and another which said “Found at the second attempt. TFTC.” So I checked the earlier logs for DNFs, not a single DNF for either of these two! Do you think I should point out this omission to them? Or perhaps you would like to? Cache: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC33HKX
Dartymoor, it was those DNFs on your series that prompted me to create this topic! It’s really down to my 30 second comment with some people – they just continue to want/expect easy finds. I’m beginning to think that the best caches are those with a 25% DNF rate and I am now trying to create such caches. However, I don’t expect people to walk 6 miles on the open moor for a difficult cache, maybe half a mile 🙂
Congratulations to Station Master. After some good humoured banter at the Leaping on the Green event, Mark has deleted the offending logs to come in line with the commonly accepted principle on this topic.
I would also like to thank Matt for this series. I understand that he has already walked over 100 miles to place these caches. I think there will be 40 new caches that he has placed himself, plus another 14 that belong to other cache owners into which he has placed bonus information. I’m looking forward to seeing the bonus when it is published, hopefully it will tell me what to do with all these pluses and minuses I’ve been collecting.
One thing that is puzzling me though, why didn’t Matt just place these on one walk! He would have halved the distance needed and could have done it in one weekend, after all it’s less distance than the kids walk on 10 tors 🙂 🙂
“I still can’t get my head around placing a cache and logging it as a find.” I have a lot of sympathy with reb10, but it appears there will be no consensus on this. I personally don’t think you should expect a reward for replacing a cache, but neither do I think the CO should publish a cache that has been sitting out there for more than a year and rely on somebody else (in this case reb10) checking it out for him. The lesson I have already learnt is that I will no longer publish explicit spoilers so there will always be uncertainty on whether a cache is there or not.
Hi Dave, Welcome to the web site and to geocaching. I see from your profile that you are very new to this hobby/obsession! I think you have an excellent idea, although most cachers seem very reluctant to say much about themselves. If you look at their profiles there is often nothing written at all, not even the town they come from. What do others think, if you are prepared to say something about yourselves I will add it?
🙂 🙂 🙂 We are now back up and running with the Dartmoor Minor Challenge, with all the necessary caches in place and I have enabled the cache 🙂 🙂 🙂
As a gesture of goodwill to Stephen (Hobo) I have removed the restriction on Premium Member caches – although I still do not agree with their use except in certain very limited situations.
dartymoor wrote “As a cache owner, I know that the only way not to get people leaving irritated DNFs is to spell out exactly where it is.”
But are you looking for a 100% find rate? The most popular caches certainly don’t achieve that. Make it too easy and boring and it almost becomes pointless. There has to be some element of a challenge and difficulty. Most irritated DNFs come when either the coordinates are not accurate or when it’s a micro or nano with a multitude of hiding places. That’s when you need more explicit hints or spoilers. Place a decent size container with accurate coordinates and you don’t need them.
My most popular cache by far is Bird’s Eye View which has a 20% DNF rate but a 43% favoured rate! Look how popular The Joy of Caching series is, I don’t believe the FE caches ever have hints, and the same for MP’s Pipe Dream series. A good cache needs no additional help or you destroy the sense of achievement when it is found.
The Celtic Jedi may have seen through our little plan! These are our Google Analytics for the past week or so!
You know what they say, there’s no such thing as bad publicity, and the site broke all records yesterday for the number of hits!
I can’t answer for Stephen, but some challenges do let you count previous finds, some like the Alphabet Puzzle Challenge don’t. It was FE who suggested that, not me. And yes, you can count the same caches for both challenges.
Phil is currently working on seeing how many squares have caches, but I would imagine that the Minor Challenge is probably ok now. Trouble is there is no query you can run that identifies the DNP only caches. 13 miles from Postbridge just about covers all the park, but you get stacks that are outside as well.
I too missed all the fun last night as we had a power cut at 7.55pm and it didn’t come back until the early hours of the morning!
I think Stephen and I will have to agree to disagree on these caches. I have to be honest and say I DID think we met the rules when we planned them and we DID get prior agreement from the reviewer. However, because of the complaint he has been forced to rethink his original decision.
So where now? One option would be to get out there and place the 60 odd caches required, toss a few micros in hedges and it could be quickly done! However, that is not my style and I want to encourage quality caches, not the litter we sometimes see.
After a long conversation with the reviewer and with Phil, we will do the following: Amend the rules so that caches placed prior to 2012 will count for finds. This still means that we need to examine where caches are missing, but it won’t be that many. Phil will be working on this. This puts a dent in the original objective of a level playing field, but it still means that caches found before 2012 will NOT count. So to achieve the challenge you will still need to go and find 70 caches for the mega challenge and 21 caches for the minor challenge. Caches placed in 2012 WILL count as owned caches. Once we get the additional caches placed we are up and running WITHIN the rules.
I think the Forgetful Elephants hit the nail on the head with the following “Basically I think people want to count caches they have already done, so they can do the challenge now this minute.” Where’s the challenge in that? And it’s not going to happen with these caches!
One last word, if you want to place some caches so that we can get this back up and running as soon as possible, please do contact me and we will tell you where we need the caches placed.
Stephen has still not answered my main question – WHY? But never mind, he obviously has his reasons. This will be my last post on this subject (except to say where we go from here):
“Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.”
Douglas BaderStephen, you really are missing the point. What did you achieve by complaining to the reviewer and upsetting a lot of people. You have achieved your objective, but why and a what cost? How many friends have you won here? Have you helped geocaching in any way? Why?
I would like to thank Stephen for posting this and I accept that everything he says is correct. I did have lots of discussion with the reviewer on these caches before they were placed, but we concentrated on three aspects: were they achievable by most people – yes; could they be achieved in a reasonable time frame by some – yes (we estimated about 4-6 months for the mega challenge); could we set a level playing field for all – yes. I have to admit that I did overlook the “is it achievable now” criteria. But can I complete my 366 day grid now? Of course not, but Stephen has published that challenge which will take a minimum of a year!
In my opinion the only questions that seem to be important are: are these caches good for geocaching? Are these caches going to encourage new caches to be placed? I think the answer to both is yes and so did the reviewer when he accepted them.
Stephen may be correct in saying that they are not within the letter of the law, but I think they are within the spirit of the law, but in any case why complain and spoil others enjoyment – he certainly has not answered that?
An excellent idea and a very good write up of this walk. It would be good if we could keep to the same format for future write-ups to give consistency. It would also be very useful to have a heading for dog-friendliness. In particular if there were difficult stiles and fields containing cattle or horses. Stiles can be a nightmare for large dogs that can’t be carried.
I think muddypuddles argument has changed my mind if you agree in advance with the CO to replace a cache, then I would agree, it is ok to log a find. If it happens to be a FTF, so be it. I really don’t think this applies when it hasn’t been agreed beforehand. Otherwise we could all carry spare caches and put a new one out instead of logging a DNF, which is what happened twice with my caches. With this particular cache the problem seems to be that it was placed over a year ago (possibly as an opencache) and the CO hadn’t checked to see whether it was still there when it was published. Unfortunately for reb10 and pearlywhirly it wasn’t still there and they were the unfortunates who checked on the cache when surely this should have been the CO’s job.
Having checked the cache page, this cache was placed on 2nd January 2012; so, unless this has been changed, it was only placed 3 weeks ago. Perhaps the cache owner would like to add a comment?
Wow, something controversial at last!
There is a separate topic on “What is Your Criteria to Log a Find”, but this is cache specific so I will leave it here. According to the Groundspeak Rules, if you don’t find a cache it should be logged as a DNF, no alternative is suggested. In my opinion, if you replace a cache, with or without the CO permission, it is difficult to log a find on it, after all you’ve placed it, and you’ve done a good turn for the cache owner and the next visitor, but not for yourself. Twice my caches have been replaced without my prior knowledge and each time I have refused the finder’s Found log. Logging a FTF is even more diificult as it deprives the next legitimate finder of the FTF. In this case the cache had been visited the day before, so very unfortunate for those not finding, although reb10 clearly would not have found it and would have to have relied on the CO replacing it. Food for thought?
What a wonderful cache and a genuine 5/5. Anybody thinking of placing a 5/5 on Dartmoor ought to take a look at this cache 🙂
This looks like a genuine 5/5 (needs specialist equipment – which is one of the requirements for a 5/5). This ought to solve Windrush’s problem 🙂
It normally takes me longer to write the log than it does to find the cache! My pet hates in logs are:
Found with abc … and then abc writes: found with xyz (do we care?)
Logged from my iphone or similar (so – I own one of those as well!)
Just a smilie face (as though that makes the laziness ok)
Wife who copies and pastes the same log as hubby (or vice versa)It might be possible to hold events here at The Cherrybrook. However, we are only a small hotel and any event would have to be limited to around lunch time so as not to conflict with our residents for whom we serve dinner. We have already discussed this ourselves but it is probably not appropriate for us to be the organisers, as obviously we would hope to benefit financially from any such event, through bar sales, etc. I would be pleased to discuss the possibility with anybody who might like to organise an event here.
I think the big issue with C&Ds is the location of the cache. Many are in busy lay-bys often down a little cacher’s path behind a tree. Unfortunately that cacher’s path attracts others who use it for a completely different purpose! I have just noticed that Grockle Board has been archived for precisely this reason. At the best you’re grovelling in rubbish at the worse …….!
C&Ds really need to be off the ground and, much as I hate nanos, the little tube pushed into a road sign is a much better solution, provided that the CO is prepared to replace the little log every month or so.
A huge plus for geocaching is that it embraces the whole spectrum of society. Almost anybody can take part. Some will be more able than others, either physically or intellectually but there are caches out there for everybody. My preference is for those 4 miles into deepest Dartmoor, but I also respect those who can only move a few yards from their car. Recently I met a cache owner who had spent a few months in a wheelchair and will now only place caches that are wheelchair accessible and this has certainly made me think. I won’t be placing any C&Ds myself, but for some even those will be difficult.
I really like the “Favorite” (sic) system as this gives us all the opportunity to rate a cache. My analysis of the 2011 caches has surprised me many times – place a C&D in a different or innovative container and it immediately becomes more attractive.
I can’t agree on awarding points by using the rating scores as difficulty and terrain ratings seem to be allocated almost arbitrarily and I often disagree with caches that have obviously been overrated to make them more attractive. But this is a subject for a whole new topic!
To answer mp’s final question, I think we should all place caches to the best of our ability and to give as much thought as possible to the quality of the cache, even if it is only a C&D.
Completely off-topic I know (but it is my topic!), the power trails in The States are normally done by a team who drive along the highway where the caches are placed exactly 0.1 miles apart. In some cases they pick up the cache and log it whilst driving to the next cache, and drop that cache where the next one was, etc. So they end up moving them all along one! Nobody had better try this with Walk on the Wild Side or all their finds will be deleted 🙂 Back on topic, my original post concerned a cache that was definitely in Miss’s “puzzle to open” category. It’s still shown as a find which I think surprising.
I hope that work in progress is a few more Pipe Dream Caches – they have been an excellent series to date. As you are probably aware Touch Feely has been found 3 times since I created this topic.
PS – Where is number 4 in this series? Didn’t it go from 3 to 5?
Thanks for creating this topic. The Dartmoor Firing Ranges were on my “to do” list for the web site but I haven’t got there yet! At some stage I will create a new page specifically to explain the military presence on the moor and how it affects us but for now a couple of links will suffice. Thanks once more, Dave.
I think Groundspeak have this covered in their knowledge books:
Can I log a find on my own cache? What about when I go back to visit?
It is considered “bad form” to log a find on your own cache, no matter when you do it. The same is true if you re-visit another traditional cache (for example to place or retrieve a travel bug). Use the “post a note” log option to record your visit in these circumstances.
In either case, you’re not “finding” a cache because you already know where it is. Save the smiley face for use when you’ve truly discovered a hidden cache.
I’ve now added the uncropped version of the header photographs under the Site Photos menu item or click here
What a great idea! Before moving to Dartmoor, Judy & I led the SW Surrey Walkers and our standard walk was an 8-10 mile figure of eight. 4-5 miles in the morning, the same in the afternoon and a pub lunch in between! You could do either walk, both walks or just turn up at the pub! Well worth thinking about when planning a geocache series.
At the top of the web page (above Dartmoor Geocaching) there is another menu. On the left you should see your Username, next to this there should be a Dashboard entry. Everybody has the same privileges, so you can all perform the same actions. On both of these menus there is Profile option. Select that and you can change your password, etc. At the bottom of the profile options it says Avatar and there you have the option to upload a new avatar. Several members (including myself) have changed their avatar so I know it works.
